Welcome to the debate, Brian. I look forward to defending your positions or explaining why they're wrong, as circumstances merit.

In this instance, I'd suggest that you're taking too simple a view to see those of us who've been working to reform local government as taking a short-term approach in order to save a few bucks on taxes. You give the impression of being new to Tiverton and perhaps new to Rhode Island, but some of us have traced the problems through multiple towns and to the state. We're engaged in a very long-term project for the health, and even survival, of our local society, and whether or not you agree with our intentions, you'd do well to consider their implications.

Cheers, Brian.

The only thing as disappointing as the quality of discourse coming from the proponents of the budget cutting was the lack of any organized and articulate defense of the proposals coming from the budget committee. In my view that meant the prudent thing to do was to defer to those who had at least taken lots of time to consider the proposals, but I can understand how an observer could easily conclude that nobody did a particularly good job supporting their positions. At the end of the day, anti-tax sentiment, not any compelling analysis, ruled the day.

And it is important to emphasize a point you have made. It is usually the anti-tax folks who claim that unless their position prevails they will be forced to flee the town. Like you (and I suspect there are many others) I am more likely to leave if the members of this community are not willing to pay for the things that make this a desirable place to live. I just don't find, "Come to Tiverton: low taxes, low property values, lousy schools, overdevelopment, poor services, and proximity to Fall River," a compelling mission statement for the town.

I'm with you.

Community, since when does low property taxes equate to poor schools or poor housing values? It is almost always the opposite. You want to know what teh worst school system in the state is? Providence. Would you like to know which city has the highest property taxes and lowest property value in the state? Providence. Raising property taxes is directly equitable to lower property values. Just ask Coventry. Coventry raised taxes and long before the bubble burst, property values started dropping, which caused them to raise taxes, which further tumbled property taxes. Oh, and they have horrible schools too.

Metaldoc:

You don't think that good schools generally increase a town's property values?

yes, they do. But good schools and high priced schools are not the same thing. You can have good schools without taxing the town into oblivion. Other towns do it, why can't Tiverton?

Block Island has arguably the BEST schools in the state. They rank #1 every year.

and you know what? Block island has the lowest tax rate in teh state.

If the schools are so great else where and the taxes so much lower, why did you move to Tiverton metaldoc. Man has your tuned changed - you went from praising the schools to dissing them in a matter of months. Houses are real reasonable on Block Island now.

Metal, are you kidding?Block Island has how many students? Probably less than attend Ranger School. Do you really think Block Island is a valid comparision. they may have a lower tax rate but what is the average price of a home out there . I pick my children up from after school programs and see many teachers there. They also partake in a band program that takes place in the am.

Metal, are you kidding?Block Island has how many students? Probably less than attend Ranger School. Do you really think Block Island is a valid comparision. they may have a lower tax rate but what is the average price of a home out there . I pick my children up from after school programs and see many teachers there. They also partake in a band program that takes place in the am.

Brian it is not hard to tell you are new to tiverton.

JOE SOUSA does it matter if has been living for a hundred years, a few years, twenty years or two months. His opinion is no less valid than the Coulters or the Parkers or the Durfees or yourself or me.

BY the way MetalDoc, Block Island has a per pupil expense of $22,000$ per child and no more than 150 students.

Rastabri: I find it very hard to believe that you see many teachers after school. I have gone to pick my children up for after school programs and have seen and empty parking lot with the exception of the after school activities that are going on. I'm talking about a teacher in the building who is available to answer a question or take a phone call. Metaldoc is correct, now a days you need to wait until the following school day to speak to someone.

When I was growing up and I graduated from THS in 1987 teachers stayed after school EVERY DAY. If you needed extra help, you got it if you asked for it. When a child needs it today they get told "I only stay after on such and such a day (one day) a week." and many times that gets canceled as well! You're a shop teacher if I understand what I've read? I'm talking math, English, science, social studies.........you know the classes that are required to graduate? I'm not knocking shop, don't get me wrong it's a great program for students. However, when our children cannot get help with classes that are mandatory for them to graduate then there is an issue here. Parents are frustrated with the mentality of some teachers with their "you're not getting any more out of me than what is required" and who suffers? The students!

Rastabri that was as kind as I could be did you want me to call him a naive clueless niny I am tring to keep it on a higher level I don't care how long he lived here I want him to get a clue.This letter shows me that he has not lived here long.

what was naive and ninyish in his comments Ol grizzled Wise One

Joe,

Ok so how long he has lived here doesn't matter. You have said over and over gain this doesn't/shouldn't matter. He attended his first FTM and in his opinion he didn't like what he saw from the "leaders"

This seems like a responsible and well-written letter. Why is it so hard for you to be kind and what clue should he get?

This is not the first time cuts were made from the froor and I am sure it won't be the last.The com. chair proposed the cuts in the begining at the budget com hearings and stuck to his convictions.There is nothing in our charter that says he has to support a view he does not endorse he did what people like me asked him to do living up to his campaign promise .We have to many polititions who lie to get in and don't keep there promimes.Here are a couple who keep them and advocate for them. The process tiverton uses to set a budget has worked just fine for many years with a few ripples but all in all it's worked well.The cuts are achievable and necessary.The people who show up to these meetings under stand the needs of the town.

They are the most informed people in town and they under stand the concept goverment of the people by the people and for the people.To say we are penny wise and dollar foolish is a niave opinion to say the least .

Rast: Block Island has alot more people on it than you might think.

But I am not dissing the schools. I am dissing the union and the havok and chaos the unions have brought, not just to Tiverton, but to all schools. Tiverton schools are great, but could be much better. Unless you think that working for better schooling for my children is a bad thing? And in all honestly, Tiverton schools could be the best in teh state, but there is no school in RI that is as good as several RI schools were back in the 70s and 80s. None. And you know who is 100% to blame for that? Unions and school boards that cater to them. 100%. Back then a teacher who was just there for the paycheck was run out of town by other teachers, now, those teachers and coddled and protected, and given raises every year while the salaries of the rest of the country remains static. This is just plain wrong.

The teachers union has been around since at least 1980. I had bad teachers in the 1980's. Block Island is a place I know well enough. It has under 150 pupils .These facts of yours are so skewed and wrong. You hate the teachers union, we get your point but they are not responsible for all that is wrong in the world

Yes, I remember the teacher strikes in the 80s. But under Reagan, they had a much tougher time of it. Now, with all the rules skewed in favor of the unions, there is no accountability any longer. teaching is no longer a job you do because you love it, it is now a career where you go to make alot of money with permanent job security, forget the kids, although that is a favorite line from union leaders: "the kids will suffer". Hardly. The kids are suffering and getting less out of school BECAUSE of the unions and extremely high wages they have foisted on the towns. And when they dont get their way, who do they take it out on? The kids. Achool budgets have increased exponentially, yet, budgetting for non-teacher related items, like, schoolbooks, have hardly increased at all, if they have not decreased. In the 80s, with the same number of students (approximately) you could expect a class size of about 18-20. Now, expect it to be 25-30, simply because there are more teachers making more money, so the town cannot afford to have as many teachers on staff. (Hence the reason 6 were let go, not because we didnt need them, but because we couldnt AFFORD them). At the rate this is going, if the union keeps it up, there will only be 50 teachers in Tiverton with class sizes of over 100 per teacher. Is that what you want? Because thats what the union is forcing on us. And thats the thing, none of you see it. You dont see yourself losing your jobs, because it only happens 6 teachers at a time.

and unions in general are a large part of the problem in this country. why does a car, with only $8000 worth of materials in it, cost $40,000? Union wages, where a floor sweeper can get $30 an hour.

unions are socialist in nature, and we see how well socialism worked before, why is it still a force in this country? even China knows that socialism is doomed and is moving away from it, why are we moving toward it?

Who is this clown that says budget folks did not offer leadership. Perhaps this person should hang around awhile to understand the process. I am just very sad that we ran out of time because the town side of the budget would have had a much needed cut. The town is poorly run just look at the legal budget and see that there has been lots of litagation against the town. I remember when there was none at all.

Waterfront, why is it that anyone with a different view is a clown? Yes there is litagation against the town. I think some of it is coming from a "couple" of TCC members themselves. Once again we have the viewpoint that you need to be an long established Tiverton resident to have a valid opinion. Why not make it property owners only who are aloud to vote and have a say in the town, would that be more to your liking?

METAL DOC in each and every teacher contract, one of the things that teachers argue about and battle for is class size limits. Do you really think that it is the administration who wants to limit the class sizes? I may be a little slow but please clarify how " more teachers making more money" has led to an increase in class size. I clearly remember being one of about 26 students in my 11th grade english class in the late 80's Yes, money and benefits are usually the top headlines but class size and other working conditions are always part of the deal. You must have been involved in the contract talks to become so very well informed.

Hey Rasta man, Thre is a budget process with lots of public hearings and meeting and yes they are even on TV!!!! The meeting is the end of the process not the start of it. If the town were better run, there would not be all of this litagation against the town. Why are there all of these secret cases against the town? This town is very poorly managed. Instead of following the rules and laws this town picks the polictical route to get things done and it gets them every time.

Rast: of course the teachers want to limit class sizes, but the town cannot afford $100k per teacher without increasing class sizes. If they stopped asking for huge raises, the class sizes would not have to be increased. And of course, class size if the FIRST thing the unions will "give up" because they want the money first, all else is secondary.

There is certainly some interesting debate within this forum. I am happy I wrote my reaction to the FTM, and stand by my initial impressions. That does not mean I am not interested in hearing other opinions – it helps me learn, and it helps others who follow the discussion to form their opinions as well.

To clarify for those who had some questions: I have lived in Tiverton for five years, having moved here from Newport and previously Bristol. I have been a Rhode Island resident for 20 years. Each town has a unique way of governing, and I am ashamed to say, it has taken me five years to begin to learn exactly how my chosen hometown goes about the business of government. As a new participant to the process, I hope my impressions, opinions, and actions are helpful for others like me – continued ignorance of the process will only perpetuate those things which we find unacceptable.

Much of the debate appears to center on the school system – and teacher salaries. I am curious as to the average salary of a teacher in Tiverton. I would like to compare that to other professions, it might give us some perspective on the value we associate with the education of our children. I’m looking forward to reading more.

With the latest contract, teacher salaries start at, for a 1st year teacher, approximately 30,000 per school year. A 10 year teacher gets approximately 65,000 per year. But the biggest difference between teachers and "other professions" is nearly free healthcare and tenure, meaning after 10 years, a teacher cannot be fired or laid off. I know of no other profession that has that benefit. Who ever heard of permanent job security?

But to examine other professions: what other profession do you know of which your salary would increase by 100% in just 10 years? By contrast, my salary has increased, in my 10 years with my company, by about 25%. But in addition to that, my helath benefit cost has increased by nearly 50%

This might be worthy of doing more research. To level the field, we should explore those professions which require a four year degree, certification of some type, and I believe a requirement for an advanced degree (Is that still a requirement for teachers to get a Master's degree with the first five years?) Obviously, I have a preconceived notion that teachers are adequately (or even inadequately) compensated in comparison to other professions - but definitely willing to look at some valid comparisons. (Note - I am not a teacher, have never been a teacher, and have no desire to ever be a teacher - I could not live on that level of income).

My primary issue with teacher salary contracts is the lack of performance evaluation as a condition of the increase. This is an area where I will certainly disagree with the union - I do believe in performance based pay.

tivbrian,

See these links for the beginning of considering your question:

http://www.anchorrising.com/barnacles/007194.html

http://www.anchorrising.com/barnacles/007200.html

There are many ways to massage comparative numbers to make it look as if teachers get a raw deal, but the upshot is that they do just fine, and that they do particularly well in Rhode Island, with especially light requirements.

Brain, that sounds good, however, the need for the college educated has significantly dropped in this country, more and more, persons with college degrees are taking jobs that pay the same, or less, than a semi-skilled labor job. Many are also "temping" as well, with pay varying from job to job. And this trend looks to continue in the near future as middle management is eliminated. Teachers quickly move up the pay scale board each year as average college educated wages drop consistently as the workforce gets more bloated. RI has the highest teacher pay rate (when tied to per capita income) in the country. If you do a search, you will be able to find dozens of article concerning teacher pay, and RI is always at or near the top. Teachers flock here by the droves because of that. Even Mass teachers do not get as sweet of a deal as RI teachers, and that is a communist state!

Justin,

Interesting reading. I agree there are many ways to present numbers, depending on your argument. The important part of this to me is the "value" we place on the work being done. Comparing a professional who provides technical support within a corporate environment to someone who is responsible for educating our children may be valid to some, not to others - it depends on values.

I would agree much work needs to be done to encourage excellence in teaching. Unions fail to focus on this area, and as a result, often lose the support of moderate voters such as myself. I believe, if they would move towards a "pay for performance" model - and allow teachers who have innovative ideas and enthusiasm (miuch like the entrepreneur you reference in your blog) to benefit at a higher financial level - we would all gain.

Much to learn, much to do.

Metaldoc, where you get your info about teachers flocking to RI. I don't havevany hard "facts" but almost everyone I teach with is native Rhode Islander or very longtime resident.

Merit pay for teachers would be a bad move there is no way to judge a students true advancement when there are so many circumstances that affect there performance.If I am A teacher and I have a group of parents who do nothing to help there kids so the home work is not done.If the students misses a lot of days and so on will I get less money when I do every thing right.How about if the superintendent does not like me for some reason not related to school will I get less.This would be a continuous law suit And the people that judge who gets payed would have to be beyond reproach.I dont see a way to institute a merit pay system in this town. what we have may not work the best but were not getting draged to a labor board with multiple complaints.I just don't see how you can judge it and who will be the judge.

Wow! Yes, I said Wow! Reading all this back and forth makes me realize no one understands this town. AT ALL. I will be the first to say I sure don't and I've never seen a town run like this. Tiverton does not even know what kind of town it is anymore. What it is not is a retirement town. What it is not is inviting. Teens who are looking for work have to go to other towns because there is NOTHING HERE-teens looking for anything cultural are clueless-unless you count hanging out in a parking lot or hoping that skate park will be complete "someday". There is not one single new business that is allowed to thrive. AND no I am not big box but for gosh sakes-a grocery store would be nice-a community center- oh,and the one on Judson Street does not count. Tiverton has schools-schools that need to thrive for the young families who are trying to provide. AND NO, I am not pro-union-I am proactive for anything in this town that promotes positive growth-and allows children more opportunities to thrive. Who is going to keep paying tax increases? Not anyone I know.

Some Interesting comments from sources I did not expect. Have had little time to blog but just wanted to throw a few insights in. Latest figures show Massachusetts has recently passed RI in the average teacher salary. From a personal perspective…..Eleven years ago, when I came to Tiverton from our neighboring city in the Commonwealth, the salary in Tiverton was 9K higher. Now, they are dead even. Two days ago I applied for a job in a community north of Brocton. The salary is 80K per year, 10K over what I am making in Tiverton. Doubt they want an old dinosaur like me, especially if they read some of the comments about “old teachers” from you guys! LOL Not unhappy here in Tiverton but I have 20 years vested in the MA retirement system and they will accept 10 of my RI years. RI…… they will take 5 MA years that’s it! Thanks to our governor I will have to work until I am about 90 to retire here. The advantages of working in the Ocean State, for educators and others, are disappearing fast!

Joe, your right, merit pay has been tried for years in education and it has shown to not work. First of all, we get different spectrums of students. Secondly, many feel we should base merit pay on test scores. Does a teacher who teaches AP and honors classes deserve more pay than a savvy teacher who gets the most out of his or her general kids? What about the woodworking teacher? Where is his standardized test? Or for argument sake, how do we evaluate the Phys. Ed Teacher? Actually the best teachers are needed with the general kids! It looks like the only people eligible for merit pay by some models would be English and Math Teachers.

Justin, I am never saying I get the raw deal. If you had a chance to get better for you and your family you would do it. Like the allies you associate with, I will do what I can to take care of my family to the best of my means. You want lower taxes to have more take-home pay because you have kids. Me too! We all pay taxes. But as a 3 decade veteran of the education business your colleagues have no clue of what goes on in an educational setting and have no clue of the ramifications this will cause. By the way, I know teachers who are single mothers, dealing with expensive health issues (BCBS does not cover everything) and some are fighting foreclosure.

We do not all live the charmed life many claim.

Some claim giving a teacher a raise gives nothing to the children. Name a more important element to a successful learning environment than a quality teacher. I taught in the highest rated Middle School in Fall River, Morton Middle School. It was built in 1904. It didn’t have a gym, The cafeteria was on the 4th floor. But it had a great staff and we did our job well and it soared above the city's other schools. When the Fall River salaries got way below the other communities, many of the teachers left and it had an effect on the quality of the school.

How does this relate to Tiverton……

We have one of the lowest salaries in RI. If you don’t believe me go to the NEARI website and do the math. We were making 64,203 with a Bachelors Degree on step 10. We received a 5.25% raise giving us $ 67,573 which still puts us in the bottom 5 in the state AFTER the retroactive raise. The state average is 72,506 for a top step teacher with a Bachelors Degree. That should give some evidence to where we stand! We are WELL below that. If you don’t think it will have an effect on keeping quality staff, so be it. Time will tell. But you bloggers all bemoan loosing the good young (and cheap) teachers. They are the most likely to pack up and leave when they see greener pastures. Once you get settled with a house and family you are less likely to give up your seniority and sick time to start over some where else. In know, I did it after 20 years. It was a big risk. I’ve seen some great teachers leave this system because of the pay and the political climate.

Metaldoc….we get tenure after 3 years and yes, we can be fired. The only difference is it takes a more steps such as a school committee investigation and hearing. I’ve seen veteran teachers let go! You do not know about it for a simple reason: if it is made public and one tiny bit of the publicized information is false the community can be sued. There is also a lot of confidentiality laws, not for just the accused, but for the victims, that make keeping things quiet, a necessity. So why would any school system risk making such info public. Teachers get reprimanded and disciplined when it is needed. I’ve seen it. It is not reality TV!

Ok, excuse the typos and the bad sentence structure; I have been up since 3 am and I am throwing in the towel!

Ed, as always, I appreciate your posting. However, Tiverton teachers are definately not one of the lowest in the state. Even great school systems like South Kingstown and Narragansett pay less than Tiverton.

The difference between RI and Mass is not actual salary, but comparative salary. RI pays teachers more than the states per capita income. Only 3 other states do that, Mass is not one of them. It is also comparative with the states cost of living, again, RI pays teachers a better percentage of the cost of living than any other state. Even i moved back into RI 12 years ago because of the lower cost of living and better pay across the board. By and large, RI has a comparitive cost of nliving pay, for all skilled/educated persons which is well above the national average, and teachers most of all. RI is ranked by most studies as the #1 place for teachers to make a career, and one of the reasons is the highly socialist nature of the state, although that is starting to chnage as the backlash against unions in general has started to peak.

As for the young teachers leaving, yes, it is possible they will leave for greener pastures, and we will have to bring in more new hungry and caring young teachers (or uncaring, it happens). But why should young teachers be cast off simply because they are young? We have had this discussion before Ed. There are teachers at Step 10 in this system who really could give a hoot about the kids, they write assignments on a board and surf the internet for 45 minutes. Why are those teachers still working? Tenure.

And tenure after 3 years is an absolute joke. sure they can be fired, but what kind of extreme circumstance causes that? Abusing a student? Bringing a gun to school? Complaining about the way teachers treat children does nothing, as it is swallowed by the union black hole. And then of course, the teacher finds out you complained and treats the kid like crap the rest of the year, and there is nothing that can be done.

Which is why I advocate for merit pay. It can be EASILY done, without test scores, because tests do not tell the whole tale. I think we should put video cameras in every classroom and every class of every day for every teacher should be recorded, and broadcast on the internet so parents can check up on their kids, and the teachers (parents would be given special access priviledges for the classroms their children are in). This is NOT an invasion of privacy, as I am sure someone is thinking already. Whose privacy? Teachers are employees of the town and the town has EVERY RIGHT to record their work day. I have a camera that records me all day long, and it is perfectly legal. And this would also protect the teachers as well as the students. Knowing a camera was recording them, both teachers and students might think twice before acting out.

Ed: how many teachers have been fired in Tiverton in the last few years? you make it sound commonplace, when it really isnt. Publicized or not, word gets around when things happen.

Ed.

Comparisons within Rhode Island only highlight the extent to which the NEA and AFT have gamed the statewide system, with town-to-town leapfrogging.

The only thing on the NEARI's Web site (that I could find) was the 08/09 step data, and with 20% of towns blank (including Tiverton), the average step 10 salary is $69,664. Even the average MAXIMUM salary is $70,551. Folding the three towns that offer a step 11 into the step 10 column, as you do, isn't quite apples to apples. And none of this takes into account other considerations like benefits and bonus pay (e.g., longevity).

Looked at from the town's perspective, however, even before the raise, Tiverton spent MORE than the state's per-student average on instructional teachers, and that number was a greater percentage of total per student spending (tiv = 52%; RI = 46.6%). Lesson: Even by RI's skewed standards, the teachers of Tiverton are eating up more of our resources than they should.

And, by the way, I'm not in this mainly for the tax money that I stand to keep. I'm in it to restructure our educational system for the benefit of students and our society. That means greatly diminishing the power of your union, which does little but push the cost of education beyond what towns can afford, sow disharmony across the community, and present a class of union executive thugs with a veneer of respectability as they diminish the public debate.

Justin

Just as you find us “unionist” predictable…..Your response is something I could have typed in for you. The competition for young teaching talent is usually determined by regional standards. Connecticut is number one in the country and Massachusetts has passed us up. If you notice Westerly is a great deal higher than many towns due to the fact they must compete with their neighboring state. From the perspective of a 31 year vet, folding step 11 into step 10 into one category makes a lot of sense because where ever I go I will get maximum pay. Step 10 or step 11. Step 11 was added by towns to make it take a little longer for a teacher to reach maximum pay. The difference would only matter to the few teachers who have exactly 10 years! So to most teaches, it is apples to apples. You are correct in that the average is 70,551. Be that as it may, 70,551 is still substantially higher than 67,573 and is a lot higher than the 64,203 that many think we should have remained at. I have some of the missong towns and I will contact their site and ask that it be updated for the sake of those who use it for reference.

Metaldoc, what do I have to do to convince you? Copy the state salaries and paste them in? It is like the difference between black and white. SK’s max is 68,978 and Narragansett’s is 72,106, one of the highest in the state. Do not even go into longevity. Tiverton, which added longevity within the last 10 years, has one of the lowest longevity stipends and one of the lowest master’s stipends in the state.

As far as dismantling the unions, you will put hiring a firing back into the hands of the politicians if you do. I worked in cities where if you wanted to see who was going to be the next administrator, you looked at the contribution list to the mayoral re election campaign. Who would the principal hire? Whomever the mayor told them to hire! Now I am not implying that RI has any political corruption, but I doubt a system without worker protection or the reforms the unions have fought for in hiring practices, would work.

Interesting debate. While refraining from comment until now, as it seems that both sides of the issue are well-represented, I was giving thought as to how our educational system functioned prior to the initiation of collective bargaining of teacher's unions, in the 60's.

I wondered what happened to the "Little House On The Prairie" image of the schoolhouse and it's occupants...I'm still looking for specifics.

What we CAN be sure of, is that the current system is not working. The interests of the teacher's unions are in conflict with the interests of the taxpayers and their children.

Please read this excerpt from a round-table meeting entitled, "Teachers Unions: Do They Help or Hurt Education Reform?"

Terry Moe, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, and a professor of political science at Stanford University, had this to say, in part:

"All right. I want to get right to the point here. I have only ten minutes. I'm a political scientist, and I want to start with what I think is the most fundamental issue here, in this book, and in any effort of this kind. That is, if we want to explain why people or organizations do what they do in politics, we need to begin by understanding what motivates them, and understand what their interests are, because their interests will tell us what we can expect them to do, allow us to understand and ultimately predict their behavior. That's what this is about.

So, for instance, in political science we care about understanding the behavior of legislators. Well basically, what do legislators want? They want to be reelected. And that's basically how political scientists understand their behavior. We don't expect legislators to cast votes that are just in the public interest. They're elected from districts. They have strong incentives to represent their district, be responsive to powerful interests from their districts. They're responsive to campaign contributions, because they help them get reelected, right? And this doesn't happen because they're bad people. This is not a negative thing to say about them. That's the way their incentives are structured, and that's the way we have to understand their behavior. So as people they care about the public interest, but that's not what they do. In office what they do is a function of their drive to be reelected.

How do economists explain the behavior of business persons? Same kind of way. Business people are basically, in their functions as leaders of firms, let's say, are interested in making money. They're trying to maximize the profits of their firms. That doesn't mean that as people they don't care about the environment, let's say. They do, most of these people, like we all do. But if you say, hey, how about installing a $10 million scrubber in your firm, they'll say, I don't think so. Why? It's not because they don't care about the environment. It's because they're trying to make money. And this environmental concern comes into conflict with their fundamental interests. And it's the fundamental interest that wins out. And that's how we understand what they're going to do. And, again, it's not because they're bad. It's because they are leaders of business firms and the organization is rooted in this interest in making money.

Okay. Now, so what are the fundamental interests of teachers unions? Well, we can argue about that. But they do have interests. And the key to understanding their behavior is finding out what those interests are, and follow them through. And so what I would say is the basic interests of teachers unions are that they want to promote the material well being and the job security of their members, teachers, and they want to maintain and increase their own membership as unions, their resources, and their power, the most basic things. It doesn't make them bad, it makes them like all the other groups that are out there. We're just trying to characterize their basic interests.

Now, notice what I have not said. I have not said anything about good schools, making the schools better, or doing what's best for kids. Now, I think teachers care about that, definitely, and union leaders care about that. But it's not fundamental to the interests of the union. Now, this may sound offensive, but I think it's flat-out true. And it's exactly the same kind of thing we say about legislators when we say they don't fundamentally care about the public interest. That might sound offensive; [but] it's true. Basically, they cast their votes on the basis of district interests, not the national ones. That's the way their incentives are structured. It's the same way for unions. And so this is the way, I think, we need to understand their behavior. There is this conflict between the fundamental interests of unions and what's good for schools. They're not always in conflict, but they can be in conflict.

For instance, should we test incumbent teachers for their competence? Well, I think so, it just seems to me that it's obvious that that would be good for kids and good for schools. Well, the unions are against that. Why are they against it? It conflicts with their fundamental interests. That's why. They do care about good schools, but they will not do certain things, because those things conflict with their interests. That's the key to it."

More of the transcript HERE:

http://www.brookings.edu/events/2000/0411education.aspx

edavisiii said: "I have 20 years vested in the MA retirement system and they will accept 10 of my RI years. RI…… they will take 5 MA years that’s it! "

Why should the RI taxpayer pay you a pension based on work done elsewhere?

So, Ed, are you saying that Tiverton's teachers --- particularly the newer ones --- are less talented than their peers in MA and CT or, for that matter, in better paying towns in RI?

Where in Ed' s entry does it say that Justin ?

^Ugh....the weed. Rastabriweedheadtoostonedtofollow;try to keep up, son, or at least have the sense to step away when you can't keep up.

The answers aren't in a joint, Brian/Brianna.

What school district do you teach in, Rastibri?

The whole idea that we will loose good teacher to other states over pay to me does not hold water.The town of tiverton has no gangs no major crime wave and good pay and benifits for the faculty.Driving here is easy no traffic jams and homes are affordable.We offer teachers a comfortable place to live and work.All of the noise buy the union reps is nothing more than an attemp to convince taxpayers they need to pay more.Well as a stock holder in the town it is my belief that we pay what we pay based on what the town decides not based on what others pay but on what the town can afford.If teachers leave for better pay they may like the city schools.We will replace him or her with another certified teacher There are always new teacher willing to work in a school with the benifits we offer.When times were good we gave pay raises at twice the rate of inflation some times more.When the economy turns we will again give raises but for now we need to hold the line.If there are teachers who are not happy leave because you are making the lives of those who like it here miserable.You are bringing down the quality of the childrens education with your work to rule mentality.It's funny if we don't give raises we are hurting the kids but it is you who is not doing what you profess is your job.I have had it with the whiners you have a good job with good pay and bennifits stop allready.

.

Iustitia, here we go again with the insults towards people who are just talking and having a dialogue. Perhaps I should start to smoke some weed as you suggest, it might help me to understand why you attack and villify me and thousands of other good people for being in a union while you yourself a a proud card carrying member of the carpenters union. What union is that anyway? Iusutia, you seem like a school yard bully, the kind who wants to taunt people and try to gode them into a confrontation. Nice try but I don't think it is really worth lowering myself to respond in kind. I'll leave the low blows to you and Unionteacher . The two of you are starting to appear very similar. You just keep posting attacks on me and using the carefully thought out words of other people, if that is what you need to do to feel secure about yourself.

Many good points JOESOUSA, but you and your group are talking about reducing the benefits that you say will attract people to the town. All of the nice things you said about Tiverton are true, but could also be said of many other towns in RI , Mass, and Conn.

Rastabri...I'll post it again, just for you. You come across as a somewhat intelligent individual, but you lose credibility when you don't read the previous posts in the thread. Here you go again:

Stop burning out your brain and the bandwidth, here...ugh. :

Terry Moe, a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, and a professor of political science at Stanford University, had this to say, in part:

"All right. I want to get right to the point here. I have only ten minutes. I'm a political scientist, and I want to start with what I think is the most fundamental issue here, in this book, and in any effort of this kind. That is, if we want to explain why people or organizations do what they do in politics, we need to begin by understanding what motivates them, and understand what their interests are, because their interests will tell us what we can expect them to do, allow us to understand and ultimately predict their behavior. That's what this is about.

So, for instance, in political science we care about understanding the behavior of legislators. Well basically, what do legislators want? They want to be reelected. And that's basically how political scientists understand their behavior. We don't expect legislators to cast votes that are just in the public interest. They're elected from districts. They have strong incentives to represent their district, be responsive to powerful interests from their districts. They're responsive to campaign contributions, because they help them get reelected, right? And this doesn't happen because they're bad people. This is not a negative thing to say about them. That's the way their incentives are structured, and that's the way we have to understand their behavior. So as people they care about the public interest, but that's not what they do. In office what they do is a function of their drive to be reelected.

How do economists explain the behavior of business persons? Same kind of way. Business people are basically, in their functions as leaders of firms, let's say, are interested in making money. They're trying to maximize the profits of their firms. That doesn't mean that as people they don't care about the environment, let's say. They do, most of these people, like we all do. But if you say, hey, how about installing a $10 million scrubber in your firm, they'll say, I don't think so. Why? It's not because they don't care about the environment. It's because they're trying to make money. And this environmental concern comes into conflict with their fundamental interests. And it's the fundamental interest that wins out. And that's how we understand what they're going to do. And, again, it's not because they're bad. It's because they are leaders of business firms and the organization is rooted in this interest in making money.

Okay. Now, so what are the fundamental interests of teachers unions? Well, we can argue about that. But they do have interests. And the key to understanding their behavior is finding out what those interests are, and follow them through. And so what I would say is the basic interests of teachers unions are that they want to promote the material well being and the job security of their members, teachers, and they want to maintain and increase their own membership as unions, their resources, and their power, the most basic things. It doesn't make them bad, it makes them like all the other groups that are out there. We're just trying to characterize their basic interests.

Now, notice what I have not said. I have not said anything about good schools, making the schools better, or doing what's best for kids. Now, I think teachers care about that, definitely, and union leaders care about that. But it's not fundamental to the interests of the union. Now, this may sound offensive, but I think it's flat-out true. And it's exactly the same kind of thing we say about legislators when we say they don't fundamentally care about the public interest. That might sound offensive; [but] it's true. Basically, they cast their votes on the basis of district interests, not the national ones. That's the way their incentives are structured. It's the same way for unions. And so this is the way, I think, we need to understand their behavior. There is this conflict between the fundamental interests of unions and what's good for schools. They're not always in conflict, but they can be in conflict.

For instance, should we test incumbent teachers for their competence? Well, I think so, it just seems to me that it's obvious that that would be good for kids and good for schools. Well, the unions are against that. Why are they against it? It conflicts with their fundamental interests. That's why. They do care about good schools, but they will not do certain things, because those things conflict with their interests. That's the key to it."

More of the transcript HERE:

http://www.brookings.edu/events/2000/0411education.aspx

Rastabri: have you read unionteachers latest rants over on the "proposed property tax hike doubles" thread? Because if you haven't read all about his "lessons" perhaps you should. Maybe then you'd have a clearer understanding as to why citizens are fed up with union bullying.

We will have no problem filling the roles with good teachers who care about our children.As long as we have a good super. to put our schools on the strait with a good school com. to guide and support him or her.

Not yours,

You have to buy back the years. It is a way to try to get teaching talent from other states. Similar to what business does...Do they not offer perks for workers to change jobs? Is capitalism only good for workers, not educators?

Jusitin,

Interpret it any way you want. The highest paying communities get 1st pick of the draft. When I was in college, many moons ago, the professors told us where to apply, and who paid better. If you could work the same amount of hour and do the same job for more money you’d do it as a responsible father and husband.

In fact, some systems, when they have openings, call neighboring systems that pay better, so they can get a list of the candidates they didn’t hire. Do you think this practice results in that community getting the best talent?

Every year Tiverton has a bunch of student teachers from a private local college. They are, for the most part, some good young teaching talent. Most are from Connecticut and up state New York. They usually chuckle when we ask them if they are sticking around because they know they will get paid a lot better if they return to where they grew up.

Institutia…GREAT READ!

Does this professor have any ideas regarding tax groups?

Getting back to serious discussion…..What did happen to the school mom era? Maybe teachers are being effected by the same economic problems the rest of you folks are fighting. When you think of a school mom you think of someone with no family to support. Let’s look at the Tiverton councilor reffered to by Justin in his blog! Forgive me if I am providing too much info. You have a young lady who has a mortgage, has a child and gets no support because her ex husband died tragically in a car accident. Single mom, plus house, child and no support! Not quite the charmed “little schoolhouse of the prairie” life. Can you see why she is a bit aggressive trying to get better salary and benefits than the old school mom. Teachers are real people! We have real problems.

The failure to see this has been a sticking point for me. I understand the TCC folds are not all millionaires and many just want better for their family through paying fewer taxes. I do not agree with the tactics or the ramifications of their actions. But I try to understand their logic. As teachers, we are not trying to hijack the town’s ransom. Like everyone else, we want to feed our family. Lexus/ Benz? I drive a 97 Pathfinder, Justin a white van. We are all in the same boat!

OK, one comment a night….this stuff can consume you!

Beleive me Hiker I am as fed up with unionteacher as you are. I like people who can discuss something without insulting me. He is bad for the image of teachers but why should that lead to insutia insulting me. Speaking of Insutia thanks for the crucial repost of the Moe article. Your right I am going to join your side now. All I need to do is join a blue collar union and then explain why that is kosher.

OK, Bri. I'm sorry. No more rhetoric/insults. Truce?

edavisiii , I have to disgree with you on the point that maybe YOU drive a 97 pathfinder tell me I'm wrong that I don't see MANY BMW's/Lexus'/Benz in the Tiverton school parking lots? I know of MANY, I have kids in all three levels of schools and have visited often enough to know what I'm talking about.

Joseph A. Trillo: Have R.I. taxpayers at last had enough?

01:00 AM EDT on Wednesday, June 10, 2009

JOSEPH A. TRILLO

NEARLY A CENTURY of union meddling and political mismanagement have culminated in Rhode Island’s worst economic crisis in memory. Correcting generations of misdeeds and implementing policies and budgets that are sustainable are both necessary and daunting challenges. Doing so will require a multitude of taxpayers who are informed and willing to work for their cause, just as the unions have been for decades.

The most imposing obstacle to restoring prosperity in Rhode Island will be ending the sweetheart deals that have been given to state and municipal employee unions over the years. One example of these indefensible benefits is the right to retire after 20 years of service with a pension, annual 3-percent cost-of-living increases, and full health care for life. These public-sector retirement benefits are completely out of whack with their private-sector counterparts.

The union party must end. The state, and its cities and towns, simply cannot afford these overly generous union benefits any longer. Furthermore, the taxpayers hopefully will not stand for more tax increases to pay for these union-employee benefits that are far better than their own!

While the taxpayers are demanding change at the local level, the mayors and city managers simply do not have the power to make substantive changes to their budgets. While the unions have managed to incorporate these costly benefits into their collective-bargaining agreements, they have also managed to get their members and supporters elected to the state Senate and House so they can pass laws to protect the unions’ interests. Some examples of these pro-union mandates are minimum-manning requirements, binding arbitration, prevailing wage, pay for accumulated unused sick days, specified health-care providers, unusually low minimum-retirement and pension-eligibility ages and nominal co-pays on health insurance.

These are just some of the expenses that have delivered Rhode Island to the brink of financial disaster. To return to prosperity, some fundamental changes must be embraced and supported by taxpayers and politicians alike.

First, to lower both municipal and state operating expenses, public-employee unions must be held at bay and their interests must be placed second to the greater interests of the state, its cities and towns and the taxpayers.

Second, there must be some regionalization of services, including but not limited to police, fire, schools and highway departments, while still preserving the individual identities of each of the cities and towns.

Third, Rhode Island, which is currently at a competitive disadvantage with our neighboring states, must make its tax burden the lowest in New England, so as to appeal to business and to foster job growth.

Fourth, Rhode Island is in the midst of a financial crisis, and it must begin to operate accordingly. It must function like a business that is in Chapter 11. The General Assembly has the power to provide mayors and city and town managers with the authority to cut costs and make fundamental changes to the labor laws that have favored the unions, but will they have the political courage to do so? Will their constituents demand nothing less?

Fifth, the powers of the many school committees must be reduced. They should not be allowed to negotiate with unions nor should they have the authority to approve school budgets, which in many cases can be up to 80 percent of a city or town budget. Instead, those powers should be vested with mayors, administrators or city and town councils.

Sixth, with all of the above in place, the Rhode Island Economic Development Corporation should focus its efforts on recruiting companies with well-paying jobs and marketing Rhode Island to them.

Does this sound like a fantasy? You decide. I think that it is up to the five out of six taxpayers who are not represented by the unions to make it happen.

Joseph A. Trillo is a Republican state representative from District 24, in Warwick. He has said he may run for governor.